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Council Meeting: 12/September/2013 15:00 UTC in #openmandriva-council @ freenode



  • Open the list
  • Apply moderation rules.
  • AOB


  • LINK: Agenda
 (ashledombos, 15:30:30)
  • Opening council ML (ashledombos, 15:51:01)
 * ACTION: anuragbhd create new open mailing list council@
   (ashledombos, 16:04:56)
 * , anuragbhd created  (ashledombos,
 * ACTION: anuragbhd ask to dh if it's easy to rename om-stuff@ in
   stuff@ for other mailing lists  (ashledombos, 16:17:34)
 * ACTION: itchka propose to prepare a text for announcing the new ml
   that will be validated  (ashledombos, 16:32:17)
  • Apply moderation rules (ashledombos, 16:32:48)
 * ACTION: itchka will prepare the english text for announcing
   moderation rules  (ashledombos, 16:57:04)
 * ACTION: prepare some workflow for moderation  (ashledombos,
 * LINK: this was in the proposed
   text  (ashledombos, 17:47:58)
 * itchka will see how to manage a "counter to zero" for blackcrack,
   since we now have moderation rules  (ashledombos, 17:55:41)
  • aob (ashledombos, 17:56:19)
 * ACTION: ashledombos search how to create irc redirection plus cloak
   for chwido  (ashledombos, 18:04:18)

Meeting ended at 18:07:24 UTC.


15:29:19 <ashledombos> #startmeeting Council/M20130926
15:29:19 <chwido> Meeting started Thu Sep 26 15:29:19 2013 UTC. The chair is ashledombos. Information about MeetBot at
15:29:19 <chwido> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:29:37 <ashledombos> Ok even if I'm "late", htere is not so much in agenda
15:30:00 <ashledombos> i hope there will not be netsplit each time :)
15:30:30 <ashledombos> #link Agenda
15:31:01 <anuragbhd> need to grab some quick dinner... I won't be long
15:31:23 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: the first question may be for you
15:32:14 <ashledombos> we have been "criticized" for being too much in the shadows, it's why there is a proposal to open the ml
15:32:25 <ashledombos> while keeping previous log private
15:32:39 <jclv> We can add the next physical meeting project
15:32:39 <jclv> the council ml
15:32:41 <bero> We need 2 MLs then
15:32:57 <bero> There's some stuff that probably shouldn't be public just yet
15:33:11 <ashledombos> yes, in fact we should keep one ml mainly for managing private data
15:33:45 <Wayne_Sallee> keep the current one private, and create a second one to be open.
15:34:09 <ashledombos> what do you think about something like om-board or om-management?
15:34:19 <ashledombos> for the public ml
15:34:34 <itchka> definately not management
15:34:36 <Wayne_Sallee> I think it would be better to continue to call it council
15:34:53 <Wayne_Sallee> It would cause confusion if one was council, and the other was board.
15:34:56 <ashledombos> om-council-public?
15:35:02 <Wayne_Sallee> yep
15:35:43 <itchka> no that implies somethings hidden which is not what you want
15:35:49 <bero> Or om-council-private (implying that om-council is public by default)
15:36:00 <Wayne_Sallee> yep
15:36:04 <Wayne_Sallee> that would work.
15:36:14 <ashledombos> i prefer this last one, but is it easy to change the ml name, anuragbhd ?
15:36:22 <itchka> what needs to be kept secure?
15:36:34 <ashledombos> itchka: mainly private data
15:36:40 <Wayne_Sallee> if we do that it would be better to rename than to make open.
15:36:54 <jclv> Personal data
15:36:54 <jclv> we gathered
15:37:07 <Wayne_Sallee> discussion on urgent attacks
15:37:17 <itchka> by private data you mean addreses, private email addresses?
15:37:26 <Wayne_Sallee> yep
15:37:26 <jclv> yes
15:37:30 <bero> and discussions with potential partners that don't want the fact that they're talking to us published
15:37:40 <ashledombos> yes, and yes for bero
15:38:04 <bero> if e.g. Canonical were admitting that Ubuntu sucks and talking to us about redoing their OS, I doubt they'd want that public before it's done ;)
15:38:10 <itchka> why not council-legal then
15:38:36 <Wayne_Sallee> something else :-)
15:39:07 <ashledombos> mmm, it's not only legal in fact
15:39:13 <ashledombos> it's only "non public"
15:39:16 <itchka> The point I'm trying to make is that the name should imply a real reason for being private
15:39:23 <ashledombos> we can discuss legal things publicly
15:39:58 <Wayne_Sallee> council-clothed  :-)
15:40:20 <Wayne_Sallee> Some things in council just need to be private.
15:40:23 <itchka> in a jump-suit!!
15:40:34 <bero> council-top-secret-conspiracy-in-progress ;)
15:40:46 <Wayne_Sallee> That should be obvious to people that there are going to be times when discusions are going to need to be private.
15:40:57 <itchka> bero: Behave!!
15:40:58 <Wayne_Sallee> lol
15:41:26 <ashledombos> mageia love mailing lists :) (they have too much imho) but they do more or less like this
15:43:39 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: here?
15:43:45 <Wayne_Sallee> I think council-private is the best thing we have come up with yet.
15:43:51 <ashledombos> yes
15:43:57 <itchka> council-secure ?
15:44:20 * ashledombos also thinks that the om- is now useless :p, but it's another story
15:44:45 <ashledombos> maybe secure
15:45:14 <bero> Yes, let's get rid of the om-
15:45:26 <ashledombos> itchka: you think we need to give a implicit justification?
15:45:53 <jclv> nothing is secure, but priv or private is the right name, imo
15:45:56 <itchka> I do
15:46:13 <Wayne_Sallee> yea I still think private is the best so far.
15:46:54 <ashledombos> itchka: by announcing "private" we say that there are hidden things, maybe we can simply create a wiki page explaining why some things are hidden?
15:47:27 <bero> Yes, IMO hiding the fact that some things are hidden just makes it worse
15:47:34 <Wayne_Sallee> Yes it would be good to explain no mater what we call it.
15:47:36 <bero> Because then people think we actually have something to hide
15:48:56 <ashledombos> and council-public or council just for the open ml?
15:49:26 <Wayne_Sallee> I think it would be good to call them council-public and council-private
15:49:36 <ashledombos> I personally prefer just council
15:49:39 <Wayne_Sallee> That way it's perfectly clear
15:49:41 <jclv> council for public and can-sealed for private ?
15:49:45 <itchka> ashledombus: I understand what you are saying and that would certainly help. There are those types who see words like private and immediately think it is like bero said.
15:49:57 <anuragbhd> I'm back
15:50:21 <anuragbhd> I checked DreamHost panel (DH is where the MLs are hosted atm0
15:50:25 <Wayne_Sallee> Anurag is back we need to stop talking about it now :-)
15:50:25 <Wayne_Sallee> heheh
15:50:27 <jclv> :)
15:50:39 <anuragbhd> it doesn't seem like we can rename lists directly
15:50:42 <itchka> What might work is to use private and to have the ml link on the wiki page point to the explanation so that when people try to join it they get the explanation
15:50:44 <anuragbhd> Wayne_Sallee: ;)
15:50:48 <ashledombos> I forgot to record the topic
15:50:51 <anuragbhd> but I can talk to the support
15:50:59 <Wayne_Sallee> we have something to hide :-) hehehe
15:51:01 <ashledombos> #topic Opening council ML
15:51:14 <Wayne_Sallee> just kidding of course :-)
15:51:48 <ashledombos> so who agrees for council-private for the private ml?
15:51:52 <ashledombos> +1
15:51:56 <Wayne_Sallee> +1
15:52:00 <anuragbhd> +1
15:52:08 <jclv> +1
15:52:17 <anuragbhd> om-council shall remain om-council, right?
15:52:30 <Wayne_Sallee> no
15:52:30 <ashledombos> and joao and kate let's say +1 as they gave me power
15:52:31 <bero> +1
15:52:35 <Wayne_Sallee> we rename it
15:52:45 <itchka> +1 If we do the link but I don't think I have a vote so just for the record
15:52:46 <bero> om-council -> council?
15:52:52 <Wayne_Sallee> we don't want to oppen the current list
15:53:10 <ashledombos> itchka: legally you don't have a vote, but your opinion matters :)
15:53:44 <jclv> bero: +1
15:53:56 <itchka> is the stuff on the current list explosive?
15:54:01 <Wayne_Sallee> yea om-council -> council is fine
15:54:04 <anuragbhd> what's the stance? do we keep om-council private and rename it to council-private and open a new public ML?
15:54:06 <Wayne_Sallee> but
15:54:07 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: how difficult is it to rename a ml?
15:54:31 <anuragbhd> ashledombos: will have to ask DH support... in fact, I'm doing it right now
15:54:31 <Wayne_Sallee> we want to name it to council-private
15:54:41 <ashledombos> yes, what has been written until now should stay private
15:55:03 <ashledombos> unless we re-read each mail to check there is no private data or confidential informations from partners
15:55:24 <ashledombos> the easier is a fresh start
15:55:32 <Wayne_Sallee> itchka: no it's not explosive.
15:55:32 <ashledombos> easiest
15:55:33 <bero> Well, we don't need to rename it if we just have 2 new names
15:55:33 <itchka> How much work would this be?
15:55:39 <bero> om-council <--- old, dead list
15:55:43 <bero> council <--- new, public list
15:55:50 <bero> council-private <--- new, private list
15:56:05 <ashledombos> bero: good :)
15:56:18 <Wayne_Sallee> who wants to read every e-mail and decide if it should be open; rais you hand hehehe
15:56:55 <ashledombos> :)
15:57:11 <jclv> Yes, let's start with new fresh mls
15:57:23 <anuragbhd> to conclude: om-council => dead; new council(); new council-private();
15:57:25 <anuragbhd> ?
15:57:28 <Wayne_Sallee> I think it would be better to rename it if we can easily otherwise we can easily create a new list, and stop teh old list
15:57:55 <jclv> anuragbhd: yes
15:57:58 <itchka> It sdepends on how many there are. It would be an important gesture to show the history. It shows commitment and that people listen and give the council credibility. Sometimes you have to do boring things to get a right result.
15:58:01 <Wayne_Sallee> not a big deal eather way
15:58:28 <ashledombos> itchka: we can prepare it for later, sure
15:58:40 <ashledombos> but in fact we need to have an open ml quickly
15:58:46 <anuragbhd> ok... let me ask DH support... if it's possible to rename ML, we'll do that... if not, we'll just create 2 MLs
15:58:56 <anuragbhd> I think it makes more sense to rename current one to private
15:59:16 <Wayne_Sallee> we can create the new list without having to wait for the new list
15:59:31 <ashledombos> yes
15:59:34 <Wayne_Sallee> i mean wait for the decision of naming
15:59:50 <itchka> ashledombus: Then it should be done if the work is spread about it wouldn't take too long I'm sure.
15:59:55 <anuragbhd> I'll create a new public list "council" for now
16:00:03 <ashledombos> #action create new open mailing list council@
16:00:08 <Wayne_Sallee> so the new list does not need to wait on what we do with the curent list
16:00:41 <Wayne_Sallee> Do we want to name it council-open or just council?
16:00:55 <ashledombos> let's make a vote then
16:01:06 <ashledombos> who prefers council@?
16:01:15 <Wayne_Sallee> ??
16:01:26 <ashledombos> (rateher than council-public@)
16:01:27 <ashledombos> rather
16:01:34 <jclv> council
16:01:41 <Wayne_Sallee> I prefer council-public
16:01:42 <itchka> just council sounds good
16:02:28 <ashledombos> I have no strong opinion, i think council doesn't imply the fact that some stuff are hidden
16:02:29 * bero prefers council@ (doesn't imply we do private by default)
16:02:30 <itchka> That way the division is not obvious it's a good solution
16:02:50 <anuragbhd> I prefer just "council"
16:03:17 <ashledombos> I'll vote for council
16:03:57 <anuragbhd> "council" wins then?
16:03:59 <Wayne_Sallee> Looks like council wins the vote
16:04:27 <ashledombos> yes, even if joao and kate are voting the opposite, it would be a 4 to 3 :)
16:04:49 <ashledombos> #undo
16:04:49 <chwido> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x93f658c>
16:04:56 <ashledombos> #action anuragbhd create new open mailing list council@
16:05:11 <ashledombos> (I add anuragbhd to the previous action item)
16:06:06 <anuragbhd> who'd like to volunteer to admin this new list?
16:06:06 <ashledombos> itchka suggest that we work on previous ml to sort what could be migrated to the open ml and what could not, we can add this in a todo for when we'll have less work to do, wdyt?
16:07:00 <anuragbhd> I think it's would be too strenuous a work
16:07:00 <ashledombos> well, i can help as moderator
16:07:07 <Wayne_Sallee> way too much work
16:07:27 <Wayne_Sallee> to migrate
16:07:36 <bero> And not legally safe (technically I think we need each message's author to approve publishing it)
16:07:44 <anuragbhd> anyone else would like to volunteer for ML admin?
16:08:02 <Wayne_Sallee> the open list should not be fore other people to post, but for other people to read.
16:08:05 <itchka> ashledombus: I'm ok with that. Happy to help
16:09:08 <ashledombos> itchka: you'd like to be moderator for ml?
16:09:33 <anuragbhd> pointed to be noted: created
16:09:39 <anuragbhd> should be active in a few mins
16:09:54 <ashledombos> mm, for council, i guess it's better if it's someone from council, but we need help in almost all ml
16:10:12 <ashledombos> #info, anuragbhd created
16:10:48 <Wayne_Sallee> We can't have council mailing list cluttered with a bunch of posts from other people. We have other lists for that.
16:11:21 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: when you have some reply from DH, it would be interesting to know if we can remove the om- which is now useless
16:11:31 <bero> If we can't be contacted at council@, we need a different contact address... Or does com@ take care of relaying messages to council@/council-private@
16:11:32 <bero> ?
16:11:41 <itchka> ashledombus: Yes sure can't imagine there will be huge traffic and you all seem pretty sensible so I would hope I'd have little to do.
16:12:41 <anuragbhd> ashledombos: sure, I'll let everyone in Workshop/Infra/Council know
16:12:42 <ashledombos> itchka: sensible?
16:12:53 <ashledombos> what do you mean :)
16:13:22 <ashledombos> (be cautious, if i'm angree, i become all green and break everythings around me screaming :p
16:13:46 <itchka> alias:pov
16:14:34 <ashledombos> jclv: back from netsplit?
16:14:45 <jclv> yeap!
16:15:04 <itchka> The external contact to council I think needs to be to council-private does it not
16:15:32 <ashledombos> the best is to have someone who reads
16:15:40 <itchka> Otherwise that approach from Canonical would hardly be secure
16:15:59 <ashledombos> we have a simple mailbox
16:16:12 <bero> itchka: Depends... If I'm Microsoft asking OM to create a new OS for me, it would probably be council-private, but if I'm a member and want to demand that that evil bero guy must be removed from the council, I may want a public record, so I'd use council@...
16:16:38 <ashledombos> :)
16:17:11 <itchka> so really then we must filter council
16:17:34 <ashledombos> #action anuragbhd ask to dh if it's easy to rename om-stuff@ in stuff@ for other mailing lists
16:17:55 <anuragbhd> for all MLs? :o
16:18:00 <ashledombos> itchka: this would be the main role of council ml moderation
16:18:06 <anuragbhd> ok
16:18:26 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: i thought what you said
16:18:35 <ashledombos> 18:12:42 - anuragbhd : ashledombos: sure, I'll let everyone in Workshop/Infra/Council know
16:18:37 <itchka> ashledombus: Ok understood
16:18:38 <anuragbhd> I thought it was only about om-council
16:18:55 <anuragbhd> ok, I'll do that
16:19:15 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: it's not urgent at all, but the om- is not necessary as we have domain name
16:19:17 <ashledombos> wdyt??
16:20:45 <itchka> ashledombus: That may screw a lot of peoples mail filters and their stored addresses is it really worth causing all that inconvenience. Why not consult more widely?
16:20:56 <ashledombos> #save
16:21:13 <ashledombos> itchka: ok
16:21:16 <ashledombos> you're right
16:21:22 <jclv> itchka: +1
16:21:47 <itchka> ashledombus: Encourage community. It's hard work at first
16:21:49 <anuragbhd> also, in the start we had decided that we could have more than one project in OMA
16:21:54 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: but you still can ask, just for knowing :p
16:21:58 <anuragbhd> OM is just one of the many to come :)
16:22:11 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: omlx you mean :)
16:22:20 <anuragbhd> yes
16:22:34 <ashledombos> i agree, and it's not urgent not important
16:22:39 <anuragbhd> so om-com would be different from conquertheworldproject-com
16:22:42 <anuragbhd> yep
16:22:45 <itchka> hey guys we are not even walking yet
16:23:10 <anuragbhd> I've already put in a ticket to ask for renaming:)
16:23:16 <ashledombos> conquerthelegobox-com
16:23:30 <anuragbhd> om-council to council-private
16:24:06 <ashledombos> just one last question relative to the new ml council public
16:24:21 <ashledombos> when do we announce, when do we start using it and who do the announce :)
16:24:47 <ashledombos> (3 questions in fact)
16:25:25 <jclv> create the list now and announce it the current council list, first
16:25:57 <Wayne_Sallee> wait to anounce it after it it is working.
16:26:06 <jclv> announce it in the wiki when done
16:26:16 <bero> now, now and workshop?
16:26:31 <itchka> The council should appoint someone to write a carefully worded announcment which should be ratified. then the council as a whole should publish on the blog and on all the mailing list and in the formus
16:26:32 <jclv> bero: ?
16:27:08 <bero> jclv: Answers to the 3 questions -- when announce, when use, who to announce
16:27:21 <jclv> ok :)
16:27:23 <Wayne_Sallee> oh :-)
16:27:27 <ashledombos> for example, we could give us a week or two for testing, and preparing announce and doc?
16:28:07 <ashledombos> unless someone can prepare the doc now, and i agree with itchka it should be announced by council
16:28:08 <Wayne_Sallee> yea we don't want to announce it untill after we are ready.
16:29:17 <ashledombos> next thursday we announce? if no one want to prepare a text, I'll do it :)
16:29:29 <itchka> If I am to be moderator I have to advise that I will be on holiday for ten days commencing Monday. So if a moderator is required it will have to be when I return.
16:30:03 <ashledombos> itchka: ok
16:31:06 <itchka> Should you wish I am happy to prepare a form of words for the announcment if you wish, I do quite enjoy doing such things.
16:31:21 <ashledombos> itchka: sure, it may help :)
16:31:41 <ashledombos> it'll need to be validated first, but it would really help
16:31:54 <jclv> itchka: thx
16:32:02 <anuragbhd> ashledombos: next topic then?
16:32:04 <itchka> Ok I'll run up a draft and mail it around for comment and approval.
16:32:17 <ashledombos> #action itchka propose to prepare a text for announcing the new ml that will be validated
16:32:21 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: yes
16:32:48 <ashledombos> #topic Apply moderation rules
16:33:15 <ashledombos> well, it seems that no one really commented on the moderation rules, except gmoro
16:33:20 <ashledombos> and rolf
16:33:34 <ashledombos> so can we consider them now applyable?
16:33:48 <anuragbhd> ashledombos: yes
16:33:56 <itchka> ashledombus: May I speak on this
16:34:37 <Wayne_Sallee> forum is broken
16:34:47 <ashledombos> yes, just notice it
16:34:51 <ashledombos> itchka: yes
16:35:07 <Wayne_Sallee> It was working a few minutes ago
16:36:13 <ashledombos> indeed, i hope it's not the servers falling down like the last time
16:36:35 <ashledombos> wiki is also down
16:36:41 <Wayne_Sallee> And we still have not gotten the contact info yet have we?
16:37:06 <ashledombos> mm, if i'm correct we have the contact
16:37:15 <ashledombos> but let's finish our meeting
16:37:17 <ashledombos> :)
16:37:17 <itchka> I think that the majority of people do not understand why moderation is being put in place. I may not have seen it but there seems to be no explanation why the council is impleneting this; If I had not seen the exchange between ashledombus and gmoro I would not have know the legal position. It is very important that this be properly publicised
16:37:35 <ashledombos> itchka: yes, you're right
16:37:56 <ashledombos> itchka: how would you publicise it?
16:38:08 <Wayne_Sallee> wki
16:38:20 <Wayne_Sallee> would be one way
16:38:57 <ashledombos> jasper is very long to respond
16:39:18 <ashledombos> oh, thinking bout' this: are we hosting beta isos?
16:39:22 <jclv> ruby is running
16:39:54 <ashledombos> if people start to download isos from our servers, we'll have not enough bandwith for services
16:40:03 <itchka> No not the wiki the reals users subscible to the lists that is where the core live. By all means announce on the wiki and on the forums as well but the lists are the most important
16:42:33 <ashledombos> itchka: if you have time for it, would you like to prepare some kind of document related to this?
16:43:41 <itchka> ashledombus: Sure I guess I could base it on your mail to gmoro would that be ok?
16:44:16 <ashledombos> jclv thinks i have been too much law-ish
16:44:27 <ashledombos> maybe then something smoother :p
16:45:02 <ashledombos> anuragbhd: if you need to go, don't worry, the question for which you were important is finished
16:45:08 <itchka> I can distill that down to simple words the thing is all the priciples are there.
16:46:17 <ashledombos> itchka: ok :)
16:46:38 <ashledombos> I ask if anyone disagrees if you work on it, for the principle
16:46:46 <itchka> ashledombus: Are you a lawyer?
16:46:50 * ashledombos looking around
16:46:57 <ashledombos> itchka: not at all
16:47:35 <ashledombos> However I work for some lawyers, for their IT
16:48:04 <ashledombos> and as we are only two french in the associations, we have to do the work of reading french law :p
16:48:37 <itchka> so you can get a bit of free consultation then?
16:48:45 <ashledombos> yes
16:49:16 <ashledombos> but lawyers are not good at everything (when they're at least good at something)
16:49:20 <ashledombos> anyway
16:49:48 <itchka> Lawyers are good at ego!
16:50:03 <ashledombos> bero: itchka jclv are you ok if itchka prepare some text related to the moderation rules?
16:50:13 <jclv> yes
16:50:14 <Wayne_Sallee> Who is heading up the translation team?
16:50:28 <itchka> good point
16:50:31 <ashledombos> we have a translation team? :p
16:50:42 <jclv> we have translators
16:50:43 <Wayne_Sallee> maybe not
16:50:53 <Wayne_Sallee> maybe we need one?
16:51:02 <ashledombos> yes, it would be great
16:51:21 <ashledombos> we have translators yes
16:51:53 <Wayne_Sallee> I am trying to answer an e-mail about helping in tranlation, but the wiki says nothing about who is translation or team of translater
16:52:18 <itchka> Wayne is right good translations are extremely important else meaning can be lost or misintepreted.
16:52:48 <Wayne_Sallee> So I don't know who to tell the person to contact
16:53:29 <Wayne_Sallee> So we need a tranlation team and documented on the wiki so that people interested in helping in translation can know who to contact.
16:53:54 <ashledombos> yes
16:54:23 <ashledombos> we can add this on our todo list, as soon as the network issues are solved
16:54:32 <ashledombos> wtf?
16:54:41 <Wayne_Sallee> network is working
16:54:41 <ashledombos> i'm double connected
16:54:42 <Wayne_Sallee> now
16:55:46 <Wayne_Sallee> well partly working :-) wiki is working.
16:56:10 <ashledombos> partly working
16:56:36 <ashledombos> well let's finish the meeting
16:57:04 <ashledombos> #action itchka will prepare the english text for announcing moderation rules
16:57:26 <ashledombos> #action prepare some workflow for moderation
16:57:38 <anuragbhd> gotta go guys, will read the rest from the log
16:57:50 <anuragbhd> nice talking to all
16:57:53 <anuragbhd> bye
16:57:56 <itchka> see ya
16:57:59 <anuragbhd> Good Day/Night
16:58:23 <ashledombos> see ya
16:58:48 <ashledombos> any questions left for moderation?
16:59:17 <itchka> Yes
17:00:48 <ashledombos> yes itchka :)
17:01:34 <itchka> What is going to be the policy with regard to people like blackcrack. I felt that the 6 month ban was a little harsh. With moderation I presume we are not allowing some of his more extreme emails through?
17:02:29 <Wayne_Sallee> yes many of his junk was simply blocked.
17:03:03 <itchka> I don't see quite then how we deal with the likes of him. If we have moderation then presumably we don't have bans?
17:03:27 <Wayne_Sallee> moderation takes time and work
17:03:36 <Wayne_Sallee> eventually one needs to be banned.
17:03:49 <itchka> French law says we have to have it
17:04:04 <jclv> Not really
17:04:04 <Wayne_Sallee> how many posts are you going to want to deal with moderating untill you finaly say, enough is enough.
17:04:17 <ashledombos> banning is not mandatory
17:04:30 <ashledombos> the case blackcrack is special
17:04:47 <bero> sorry, had to take Chwido outside for a bit, reading back
17:04:51 <ashledombos> in fact he's a problem since months, maybe yers
17:05:00 <ashledombos> years
17:05:15 <ashledombos> bero: we need chwido ! who will log then?
17:05:28 * bero is fine with itchka preparing moderation rules text
17:06:04 <bero> I agree that 6 months may be a bit harsh..
17:06:11 <itchka> If we moderate surley we vannot ban since the offence never gets committed.
17:07:27 <Wayne_Sallee> that's not true
17:08:00 <Wayne_Sallee> If someone tries to commit murder the are arested and tried for attempted murder even though he was stoped from murdering.
17:08:30 <bero> yes, but it does make it hard to argue why someone was banned if nobody ever read what he tried to post
17:09:02 <Wayne_Sallee> that's what the jurry (council) is for.
17:09:51 <jclv> I think he will never understand what we are doing:
17:10:18 <itchka> If I understood asledombus's post correctly we are dealing here with defamation. Which I understand to to be effectively piblic character assasination.
17:11:33 <jclv> Of course ha has the right to say that but not with a so offending language
17:11:47 <ashledombos> itchka: it was mostly insults
17:12:08 <itchka> jclv: I have seen that yes.
17:12:09 <ashledombos> and mainly because insults toward robert xu
17:12:15 <jclv> I'm thinking about what he said to robert
17:13:43 <itchka> Yes I reponded to that but it would not have been published if moderation had been in place. Would you have banned him then?
17:14:07 <itchka> If moderation had been in place.
17:14:33 <jclv> I was waiting for a decision from the cooker ml
17:14:58 <jclv> This is why each list should be self moderated
17:15:56 <ashledombos> it's fun that blackcrack considers i do nothing :p
17:15:56 <itchka> Then should each list have the right to ban or unban individuals?
17:16:36 <ashledombos> itchka: well, the best would be to agree on something, but blackcrakc's behaviour is not easy to manage
17:16:41 <ashledombos> some people are bored by him
17:16:53 <itchka> ashleddombus: I do not know why he has such a great resentment toward you
17:17:05 <ashledombos> mmm, don't know
17:17:13 <ashledombos> i guess he needs a goat
17:17:57 <itchka> I'll put a straight question. Would the council be prepared to end his ban when moderation is instituted?
17:19:32 <ashledombos> for myself, it's not a problem
17:21:06 <ashledombos> even though it's right that what he says against me, for example here, is clear defamation :
17:21:31 <itchka> Think community; Would you starve the village idiot
17:21:57 <Wayne_Sallee> Why would we want a village idiot?
17:22:27 <Wayne_Sallee> I think this discusion is rediculous
17:23:10 <itchka> Wayne I'm surprised at you if you want a community of people working toward a common aim you cannot take that view.
17:23:41 <Wayne_Sallee> requesting to have a village idiot is not an aim for a common goal.
17:24:51 <Wayne_Sallee> Nobody is going to starve if they are not involved in OpenMandriva
17:25:06 <ashledombos> for my part, i was in favour of helping him, but seeing what he says on me, i prefer abstain, but i will not disagree if people want him back :)
17:25:37 <itchka> I know someone who would be classed in that vein who can remember all the registration numbers in a car park. Writing software requires extreme dedication of ten people who do it are on the austistic spectrum.
17:26:49 <itchka> Wayne that was a euphemism as well you know
17:26:59 <Wayne_Sallee> Everybody has things that they are good at and can find their nitch and contribute, but when someon creates a burden that is greater than their contribution, then it's a net loss, not a net contribution.
17:27:50 <ashledombos> BTW i made a quick change in DNS, for an unknow reason, the dns protocol was blocked in the openvpn link, so i simply added another dnsmasq serrvice in agate
17:27:58 <itchka> I'll leave it now as I can see it's an emotive subject and I can't see that there will be any resolution just yet.
17:29:27 <itchka> Wayne: Blackcrack did try and contribute a little misguidedly it's true but he did try.
17:30:01 <itchka> Anyways let's leave it there
17:30:28 <Wayne_Sallee> Yes Blackcrack did indead try to contribute, and he did indead contribute. But it in the ballance scales, it was a net loss.
17:32:42 <itchka> He did some work on nfs for cooker as well and that was a gain so I think the books about balance on that score.
17:34:11 <Wayne_Sallee> Wen we let him back in, it would probably be good to let him back in certain areas where he can be of value, and let the moderators there manage him.
17:35:04 <itchka> ashledombos: I'm happy to leave this you need to finish your meeting
17:35:19 <ashledombos> itchka: i understand completely you pov :)
17:35:42 <ashledombos> it's true that for my part it's hard to be objective,
17:36:12 <ashledombos> when blackcrack accuse me of doing nothing and manipulating, creating my little world etc, i try to not being affected
17:36:26 <ashledombos> i'm not the first to be his target
17:36:52 <ashledombos> he has been also kicked from
17:37:05 <ashledombos> and if i'm correct for at least on other community
17:37:18 <ashledombos> it's not the fact that he's grumpy
17:37:33 <ashledombos> but he's really attacking people
17:37:55 <jclv> For no reason
17:38:16 <ashledombos> he has been several times, even before openmandriva, banned for 1 week
17:38:27 <ashledombos> with a warn that next time it would be longer
17:38:51 <ashledombos> the attack against robert was just the last straw
17:40:38 <itchka> To give Robert credit (I spoke to him last night) He had learn't to ignore the nonsense. Again it is all about resentment about what happen with the wiki.
17:41:14 <ashledombos> yes, this is what i did at the beginning, and what we did previously with other people, for example wobo
17:41:44 <itchka> bero: If Robert wasn't too unhappy could we let him back on the cooker list?
17:41:45 <ashledombos> it's easy when it's not again, and again and again
17:42:12 <jclv> We can always short the ban time, if he asks ...
17:42:15 <itchka> With moderation though it's less of an issue
17:42:47 <Wayne_Sallee> If we shorten the ban, we should just let him in a few things for start.
17:43:59 <ashledombos> itchka: Wayne_Sallee in theory, this is why we wanted to set up a moderation team
17:44:09 <ashledombos> to discuss these topics
17:44:17 <ashledombos> and see what is the best solution
17:44:23 <bero> I don't have a problem w/ letting him back on the cooker list as long as moderation is in place
17:44:36 <bero> And it must not look like we're saying "we were wrong, so we're undoing it"...
17:44:48 <itchka> bero: Thank you bero
17:44:59 <ashledombos> we can say that now it's a fresh start
17:45:44 <ashledombos> counter to zero but
17:45:52 <ashledombos> as accepted:
17:46:01 <ashledombos> Failure to observe this regulation will always be considered as involuntary by default and may be subject to a remark by a moderator, displacement or delete messages, or even a discussion between one or more moderators and the author following a protest of him. However, if a member repeatedly violated, or obviously voluntary, internal rules, the moderators may have to request a temporary ban. If repeated, it can process in a
17:46:01 <ashledombos> ban an IP address if someone creates multiple accounts in an intention to undermine the legitimate operation of the forum.
17:46:03 <itchka> Of course not. That can be managed. That is why I asked the questiion about moderation
17:47:13 <jclv> Now it's up to the cooker ml modos to cancel the ban.
17:47:27 <itchka> ashledombus: That seems to cover it.
17:47:58 <ashledombos> this was in the proposed text
17:48:26 <itchka> bero: we should discuss this with the whole list and perhaps personally with Robert Xu
17:48:49 <bero> agreed
17:49:19 <ashledombos> from my part, if there is still too much defamation related to me, at one point i'll prefer to leave
17:49:38 <ashledombos> but if he's ok
17:49:43 <ashledombos> then that's cool
17:49:56 <itchka> Thanks guys: I'll try and see to it that you do not regret this decision and if you do well it will be all my fault!!
17:50:13 <ashledombos> itchka: not your fault :)
17:50:21 <ashledombos> on the contrary, you do it right
17:50:58 <ashledombos> itchka: don't you want to manage the moderation team?
17:51:04 <ashledombos> and recruit people?
17:51:35 <jclv> itchka: and it's a collective decision
17:51:57 <jclv> I have to leave now. If needed, I give my vote power to the president
17:52:00 <jclv> Bye
17:52:11 <ashledombos> bye :)
17:52:33 <ashledombos> itchka: wdyt?
17:52:41 <itchka> mmmm? Let me and Robert get QA going well first. With bero on our side we are making progress
17:53:10 <ashledombos> ok
17:53:20 <ashledombos> you could be in both teams
17:53:40 <ashledombos> moderation doesn't need so much attention
17:54:42 * ashledombos thinks that it was only two points, but it was long meeting until now
17:54:46 <itchka> True but then I may not have enough time to do either well leave it for a little while
17:54:58 <ashledombos> ok :)
17:55:41 <ashledombos> #info itchka will see how to manage a "counter to zero" for blackcrack, since we now have moderation rules
17:55:54 <ashledombos> this topic is finished?
17:56:05 <itchka> For me yes
17:56:11 <ashledombos> ok
17:56:19 <ashledombos> #topic aob
17:56:39 <ashledombos> bero: just a question about irc channels
17:56:43 <ashledombos> are you there?
17:57:26 <ashledombos> ok not important
17:57:41 <ashledombos> but we should apply the decision taken about irc channels :)
17:58:03 <ashledombos> ie #openmandriva-cooker -> #om-cooker etc
17:58:47 <ashledombos> let's finish this meeting wdyt?
17:58:52 <ashledombos> it was long today
17:59:07 <ashledombos> interesting however
17:59:30 <ashledombos> Wayne_Sallee: ? bero ? itchka ?
17:59:41 <ashledombos> any comment left?
17:59:45 <Wayne_Sallee>
17:59:53 <ashledombos> ?
17:59:54 <Wayne_Sallee> Yes it was long
17:59:54 <itchka> I have to go out in ten minutes so that sound like an extraordinarily good idea
17:59:57 * bero is fine with moving to #om-*
18:00:03 <bero> as long as there's redirection
18:00:08 <bero> I have no idea how to set that up
18:00:22 <ashledombos> bero: i'll look at it
18:00:22 <bero> but it must be possible given mandriva channels redirect to moondrake these days
18:00:41 <ashledombos> only mandriva-cooker
18:00:49 <ashledombos> but it was created by peroyvind
18:01:10 <ashledombos> since the beginning
18:01:45 <ashledombos> so have a good ... evening here, and for wayne and colin, i guess it's afternoon :)
18:02:06 <ashledombos> (adding excused people)
18:02:17 <Wayne_Sallee> Yep, it's 2:00pm for me, way past lunch time. :-)
18:02:18 <ashledombos> #nick jofazepa klebedeff
18:02:34 <ashledombos> :)
18:02:43 <ashledombos> see you
18:02:56 <ashledombos> meeting finishing
18:03:19 <ashledombos> #save
18:03:22 <Wayne_Sallee> by
18:03:25 <itchka> Bye everyone.
18:04:18 <ashledombos> #action ashledombos search how to create irc redirection plus cloak for chwido
18:05:05 <ashledombos> fedya: do i count you in the meeting?
18:07:24 <ashledombos> #endmeeting